http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/sspx-page.html
Stay away from The DOA Cult (Disciples of Ann) because she is not entirely in touch with reality.
Read what she has to say about the ex Pope and read her confusion on how the Jewish High Priests are like Popes.
These poor folks are effectively sedevacantists just like Mario Derksen of the Novus Ordo Watch shipwreck.
I had an exchange with him years ago and he was honest enough to say The Catholic Church is his schismatic chapel...
https://novusordowatch.org/2020/05/news-digest-may-18-2020/#comment-4927258798
Where is the visible Catholic Church with a Pope etc?
Does it exist?
The Roman Catechism teaches:
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church.
but y'all say there has been no Pope for 62 - sixty two - years.
Well?
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago Well, are you telling us that Jorge Bergoglio is establishing and preserving unity in his church? Do the people who recognize him as Pope and profess to be Catholics adhere to "one Faith"? Do Michael Voris and Richard Rohr share the same religion? Do Roger Mahony and Athanasius Schneider?
Sedevacantists aren't saying the Pope is optional. We're saying we don't have one - or at least we don't know who he is, if there is one, because he definitely isn't Jorge Bergoglio.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch3 years ago You didn't answer the questions:
Where is the visible Catholic Church with a Pope etc?
Does it exist?
The Roman Catechism teaches:
It is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers that this visible head is necessary to establish and preserve unity in the Church.
but y'all say there has been no Pope for 62 - sixty two - years, which is a denial of Trent and Tradition.
Trying to shift the burden back to IANS is just a way for you to avoid answering the questions.
The reason you do that is because you reject Catholic Tradition and Doctrine that the Church is a visible society with a Pope.
If you say the Church has failed, then you are constrained to confess that th promises of Jesus were not worthy of trust; i.e. that He is a lair.
IANS could go on but it won't be necessary.
All IANS wanted to do is show how it is y'all reject Tradition that a Pope is necessary.
You hold to the doctrine of Protestantism that the Church is an invisible society of believers
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago see moreThe Catholic Church exists in her essential constitution, precisely as the Lord founded her and guaranteed her to exist until the end of time. Whether I can figure out exactly what's going on in our day is another matter. It is clear that the Church does not cease to exist if there is no Pope. That the Pope is necessary in principle, conceded; that he is necessary at all times, denied.
And to be clear: I do not insist, absolutely, that there has been NO Pope during the last 62 years, only that I don't know of one, and those who are generally reputed to have been Popes then, were definitely not it. Therefore, if Catholic doctrine should require me to affirm that there was a Pope during some of that time, I am more than happy to affirm that - I just don't know who it was.
We are dealing here, most likely, with the "mystery of iniquity" prophesied in Scripture. Please pardon me for not being able to unravel the whole mystery. It's called a mystery for a reason. A Catholic's job is to do the following:
(a) profess Catholic doctrine integrally, in every respect
(b) accept and proclaim what is manifest to the senses
(c) draw necessary conclusions from (a) and (b)
(d) leave the rest in the realm of mystery, because we have not been given all the answersYour argument assumes, falsely, that "I don't know" is never a legitimate answer, and that a Catholic can never leave anything to mystery, when that is ultimately what the virtue of Faith demands. You also assume, falsely, that "I don't know" means "I deny that....." It doesn't mean that.
If I believed the abominable heresy that the Catholic Church has failed, I wouldn't be wasting my time being a sedevacantist. We're sedevacantists because we believe in the indefectibility of the Church and that is the only position that salvages it.
I don't know you but I assume you believe Francis is Pope. If Francis is Pope, then it doesn't matter if we hold to a Protestant doctrine. Which we don't hold to, obviously, but I'm just saying. You can't have it both ways. If Francis is a true Pope, then Catholicism is false.
But Catholicism is NOT false. Ergo.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch 3 years ago If a friend of yours comes to town and asks you where the local Catholic Church is so he can assist at Mass where do you direct him?
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago To my sedevacantist parish.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch 3 years ago edited OK, thank you. You admit you have no communion with a Bishop or Pope which means you are a schismatic.
Believing there has been no Pope since 1958 you must admit there are no longer any living Cardinals which could vote for a pope you might accept and that is just another way of saying that there will be no more Popes in history which is sort of stretching the idea of an interregnum just a tad :)
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago Alright, let's start with some basic facts: Schism is the *refusal* of submission/communion, not the absence of submission due to the fact that there's no one to submit to. That is a HUGE difference in principle.
Correct, there are no longer any living cardinals that we know of. You may want to look up what theologians have written would happen in the event that the college of cardinals became extinct, for example, through a nuclear blast on Rome when they're all gathered in conclave.
2Vermont I am not Spartacus3 years ago edited No, he admits to having no communion with a heretic "bishop" and "pope" which means he is ..... Catholic.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch 3 years ago Francis is Pope and God chose him for that office.
At least that is what The New Roman Missal, Father Lascance, says
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago I'm afraid nowhere does the Missal say "Francis". You must have a special edition.
2c3n1 . I am not Spartacus3 years ago I am not Spartacus: I have the Father Lascance edition. What page does it say that God chose Francis as pope.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch 3 years ago edited see moreAccording to the 1945, The New Roman Missal of Father Lasance, yes, Franics is Pope and was chosen for that office by God.
See page 482 of The Good Friday Liturgy
The same order is observed in the supplications that follow.
Let us pray, also, for our most blessed Pope N., that our Lord and God, Who hath chosen him in the order of the episcopacy, may preserve him safe and unharmed to His holy Church, to rule God's holy people.
Let us pray
Y. Let us kneel
If. Arise.
Almighty, eternal God, in Whose judgment all things are founded, look propitiously upon
our prayers and, of Thy loving kindness, preserve unto us our chosen bishop, that the
Christian people, who are governed
by Thine authority, may, under
so great a pontiff, be increased
in the merits of their bellef.
++++++++++++++++++++
A sedevacantist has no communion with the local Bishop or the Pope but y'all insist that is somehow part of some mystery when the plain and simple truth is that you are intentional schismatics.
Now, it is obvious why you want to deflect from the plain and simple truth about what is required to be a catholic - and it is not what you substituted in place of the requirements- but one must be part of that visible society defined by Saint Robert Bellarmine and whose definition has been used by the Magisterium for hundreds of years.
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago Your entire argument is a gigantic instance of question begging: From the outset you assume as true the very thing that we dispute, namely, that Francis is the Pope and that the apostate hierarchy under him is the legitimate Catholic hierarchy. You don't argue for it, you presuppose it.
I am not Spartacus Novus Ordo Watch 3 years ago see moreThat the Pope is necessary in principle, conceded; that he is necessary at all times, denied.
Scratch a schismatic sede reveal a heretic
First dogmatic constitution on the Church of Christ
Pius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, with the approval of the Sacred Council, for an everlasting record.
1. The eternal shepherd and guardian of our souls [37], in order to render permanent the saving work of redemption, determined to build a Church in which, as in the house of the living God, all the faithful should be linked by the bond of one faith and charity.
2. Therefore, before he was glorified, he besought his Father, not for the apostles only, but also for those who were to believe in him through their word, that they all might be one as the Son himself and the Father are one [38].
3. So then, just as he sent apostles, whom he chose out of the world [39], even as he had been sent by the Father [40], in like manner it was his will that in his Church there should be shepherds and teachers until the end of time.
4. In order, then, that the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that, by the union of the clergy, the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of faith and communion, he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and their visible foundation.
5. Upon the strength of this foundation was to be built the eternal temple, and the Church whose topmost part reaches heaven was to rise upon the firmness of this foundation [41].
6. And since the gates of hell trying, if they can, to overthrow the Church, make their assault with a hatred that increases day by day against its divinely laid foundation, we judge it necessary, with the approbation of the Sacred Council, and for the protection, defense and growth of the Catholic flock, to propound the doctrine concerning the 1. institution, 2. permanence and 3. nature of the sacred and apostolic primacy, upon which the strength and coherence of the whole Church depends.
++++++++++
Dear Mr. Derksen. Thank you for the honest and peaceful exchange. You have no problem plainly confessing you are a schismatic heretic who has abandoned the faith you once held (See 2 John 9 for the consequences). You no longer have God.
IANS has a suggestion. Rename this Blog
Hopeless and Popeless
Again, thank you
Adios
PaxTecum I am not Spartacus3 years ago I usually don't butt in on conversations like this but...
NOW said, "That the Pope is necessary in principle, conceded; that he is necessary at all times, denied."
Not Spart, all Popes die, and from the moment of a Pope's death until a new one is elected, THERE IS NO POPE. It's called an interregnum, and it's length is indeterminate, i.e. it can go on a long time.
Do you really not understand that?
anna mack PaxTecum3 years ago I don't think that not Spartacus understands much, to be fair.
2Vermont anna mack3 years ago You see, I do think he understands. He is willfully blind.
Novus Ordo Watch Moderator I am not Spartacus 3 years ago Next time, please make sure that the texts you adduce actually support your position. That would be helpful.
But don't worry: There won't be a next time, at least not in this combox. Good bye!
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